I’m constantly asked: "Will Thunderbolt replace USB 3.0?"

Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 will co-exist & live long, fruitful lives

As reported previously, Apple filed and recieved a patent for a new iPhone or iPad connector which looks  like a Thunderbolt connection. You can see in the picture that it includes connections for USB 3.0 and dual port Displayport.

Apple received the patent in April 2011.  Since it takes at least 3 years to get a patent, we can guess that Apple has known since at least 2008 (probably 2007), it would support USB 3.0.

Apple may or may not have had knowledge of Thunderbolt in 2007.  I can see a world (in 2007) where Apple knew it would want it’s iPad tablet to drive a bigger monitor through DisplayPort.  That could be the original reason for dual DisplayPort and not Thunderbolt.  I can only guess.

Where am I going with this?

1. Apple uses the PCs chips found in most PCs
2. Most PCs will move to Ivy Bridge
3. Ivy Bridge will be found in most PCs
4. Future Apple PCs will likely use Ivy Bridge
5. Ivy Bridge has USB 3.0
6. It’s highly likely Apple will support USB 3.0
7. Apple patents indicate they’ve planned all along to support USB 3.0

So if you are still with me, Apple will definitely support USB 3.0

Back to the question

Will Thunderbolt overtake USB 3.0?

Pros:

1. Faster than USB 3.0 today
2. Proven
3. On every Apple mobile PC

Cons:

1. Closed Standard restricts the ability to integrate.
2. Only one company provides discrete chips

The one way Thunderbolt could overtake USB 3.0 is if Thunderbolt opens up as a standard.

USB 3.0 will have more than 100 design starts for SoC integration

The USB-IF has something like 4000 members. By the end of this year, there will be about 200 different USB 3.0 Design starts.  Thats lots of people innovating products around USB.

Thunderbolt is closed.  It will stay closed.  This video explains why:

So the Innovator that designed Thunderbolt makes money from customers like Apple, Acer, and Lenovo that ship Thunderbolt.  Big piles of money.  People that need/want Thunderbolt pay for Thunderbolt.

The innovator promotes USB 3.0 for mainstream ease of use.  Consumers are happy.

Thunderbolt closed.  USB open.

Everyone is happy.

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Try and Subscribe.

I dare you.

Apparently we’ve sold a bunch of DDR.

There was cake.

I ate 2 pieces.

The Fujitsu, ThinkPad, and Targus USB 3.0 Docking Stations represent the first of future Docking stations.  These units will completely replace the existing docking stations on your desktop within the next 3 years.

USB 3.0 Docking Stations Cost Less

Existing laptop docking stations use PCIExpress Bridges. If you have one, that docking station on your desk works only with your existing laptop.

When you update or upgrade your laptop PC every 2-3 years, you need to replace the docking station and the power brick/supply.

The smart IT department would be smart to start using USB 3.0 Docking Stations or Port Replicators.  This is because your company will not need to purchase a new docking station for at least 5 years, maybe 10. 

The math is simple.

New PCIexpress Docking Station every 3 years at about $130 each over 9 years is $390.

New USB 3.0 Docking Station lasts 10 years, is about $170 now (My guess is the price comes to to $130, so choice will be clear).

If your company is more than 100 people, this adds up quickly.  For the moment, you need to take the long view on this to make your money back, but within a year I think it becomes a no-brainer when USB 3.0 docking stations are everywhere.

Good IT departments will know what to do.

Bad IT departments don’t read this blog.

In fact, I think within 2 years, the older docking stations using PCIExpress will be not be manufactured.

Keep in  mind, the same docking station could be used for a Tablet PC.

If an iPad had a docking station like this, you could use a full monitor, mouse, keyboard.  But I don’t know if these exist today for Tablets, they might in some strange form for some Win7 tablet.  But I’m sure other than these 3, they aren’t USB 3.0 based.

More importantly, the USB 3.0 Docking station could be used with TI OMAP 5, Ivy Bridge, or Samsung Exynos 5 based tablets.

Read these 3 blogs for more.

1) TI OMAP 5 Block Diagram and Picture of Hardware

2) Ivy Bridge

3) Samsung Exynos 5 and Block Diagram 

USB 2.0 is good enough for older monitors and PCs.

Even in USB 2.0 mode, these docking stations can support video across 2 monitors using Adaptive Compression.  So you could replace your existing docking station with a 3.0 Docking Station, and it will be forward compatible.  You will get better performance with 3.0, and you can support fancier monitors, but 2.0 will be sufficient for resolution.

This might seem to argue you don’t need USB 3.0.

That still isn’t true.

You want and need USB 3.0 to connect to your 3 Terabyte Hard Drive sitting under your desk for main storage. 

You need the USB 3.0 connection to the docking station to get to your wired Ethernet  Gigabit per second so you have fast access to your network.

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Flippant Blogs

A reader told me my immediately previous blog was too flippant.

I’m glad people are actually paying attention, enough attention to actually comment on my blog.

So this little addition is add more substance to the previous blog.

And to be less flippant-y.

Fujitsu and Lenovo announced USB 3.0 Docking Stations both using the DisplayLink USB 3.0 to HDMI chip.

Fujitsu USB 3.0 Docking Station

The ThinkPad Lenovo USB 3.0 Docking Station also has the DisplayLink chip in it. It’s a pretty sleek design.

To celebrate the availability of these two terrific USB 3.0 products, I’m posting a demo showing exactly what a docking station like this can do.

USB 3.0 Docking Station–A real product bought off Amazon

The most important part about demonstrating the USB 3.0 Gold Tree with USB 2.0 peripherals, is that you can plug them all in and they “just work”  So your existing web cam, keyboards, mice, speakers, headphones, printers should all work just like we tested here.

We loaded the driver, and changed nothing in our setup and the USB 3.0 docking station worked.

My point: If you buy a USB 3.0 Docking Station it will work with your USB 2.0 stuff AND it might be the last one you buy for 10 years.

Think about buying a Fujitsu USB 3.0 Port Replicator, ThinkPad USB 3.0 Docking Station, or Targus USB 3.0 Docking Station.

As I read these articles, I realized that my lousy PCIexpress based docking station causes a Blue Screen of Death about 1 in 10 times I re-dock. So I’m going to steal a Targus USB 3.0 Docking station from the lab and replace the one on my desk.  I’m actually excited about this.

Here’s the original demo of the Targus docking station from DisplayLink recorded last year.

I described this docking station to my Dad, and he wants one.

I think my Dad doesn’t read my blog, and therefore doesn’t deserve a cool USB 3.0 Docking Station.

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Thank you for reading this blog.

Last week I wrote

“Remember Mother’s Day is May 12th in the U.S. Celebrate and send your mother a link to this blog.”

Today, Vijay (I guy I don’t talk to) walked by my office and said to me

“I sent it (your blog) to my wife’s mom”

without saying anything else before or after.

I have to wonder Vijay likes or dislike’s his wife’s mom.

Vijay’s name has been changed to protect the innocent.

I’m not sure who is innocent however.

I came across this Samsung tablet & smartphone chip with USB 3.0.  You can clearly see it has USB 3.0 as part of the design.

Even more fun, a Samsung says that this will go into a Samsung Galaxy 3 smart phone.  This means phones and tablets.

This makes the Samsung chip the 3rd tablet or smart phone chip that will definitely have USB 3.0.

TI OMAP is the first for tablets, and clearly goes into phones also.

The Ivy Bridge chip for PCs should go into tablets, but doesn’t appear to be made for phones.

And the Samsung Exynos 5 chip which looks like a tablet and phone chip.

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Realizations

I had lunch with my Mom and Dad Sunday. 

I told them about a video I planning to record.

The videos will be recorded by our most excellent marketing team of Darcy Hickey-Pierce and Hannah Watanabe of Conversation Central. (As usual do not click on that link stay here because you may not come back).

Back to the Video: My Mom and Dad both gave advice on how to put the proper market messaging in my video.

At this point, I realized, my Mom has never read my blog or watched my videos.

Which means I’m the only one who reads it.

Great.

Just Great.

Remember Mother’s Day is May 12th in the U.S. 

Celebrate and send your mother a link to this blog.

http://blogs.synopsys.com/tousbornottousb/

Maybe your Mom will read this blog.

My Mom does not.

I posted a blog “Fastest USB 3.0 Flash Drive?…” back in January.  I got reader e-mail.

An kindly reader wrote in:

“Look at the Lexar Triton (USB 3.0 Flash Drive)… (It gets USB 3.0 Performance numbers like) 155MB/s read and 150MB/s write … it is “among the fastest”  http://www.lexar.com/products/lexar-jumpdrive-triton-usb-30-flash-drive”

(Let’s call this reader Mr. Snarkman.)

On the advice of Mr. Snarkman, I bought one on Amazon, and tested this USB 3.0 Thumb Drive below.

Fastest USB Flash Drive in the Universe?

In the video, you will see USB 3.0 Performance of USB 3.0 Flash Drive:  we get 178 MB/s read and 172MB/s write.

Why did we get 20% faster results at Synopsys?

Is Lexar’s marketing under reporting so their customers can be pleasantly surprised?

You know why.

You know why because you’ve watched the video above at least twice and read the blog, “The Fastest USB 3.0 IP In the Universe?…” 

After you Subscribe, go to the explanation below

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I talked to a gentleman waiting to start his shift at Jamba Juice.  He had a 1/2 hour to wait and an iPhone.  He’s a student.

I asked, “Don’t you have something to study or read?”"

He said, “I’ve read all my Facebook updates, I’ve got nothing left to read”

This leads me to conclude:

1. Facebook is great literature.
2. Nothing compares.
3. Why bother reading anything else?
4. Stop reading this.
5. Go read Facebook.

Why our measured performance is better

The reason we get better performance:

1. We used the Synopsys Host IP on HAPS optimized for performance
2. along with MCCI Win 7 drivers optimized for performance.

Interestingly, it also means the Lexar embedded flash, the NAND flash, is capable of faster speeds than what Lexar advertises.

Final Words

This Triton 32GB USB 3.0 Flash Drive sells for about $80. Well above the price of a USB 2.0 Flash Drive, but it performs at least 5x faster.

If you’ve bought an Ultrabook (all of these have USB 3.0), then you really want to get one of these drives for backing up your data fast.

Most importantly, the Lexar USB 3.0 plug retracts into the metal casing.  The metal case is sturdy.

(I destroyed a cheaper, $20 USB 3.0 Flash drive I bought months ago.  This happens when you throw the drive in your bag, and the USB plug gets torqued. With a plastic casing, it bends and the electrical connections break.)

If you are buying a USB 3.0 Flash drive, look at the Lexar Triton for this reason AND for the performance.

I bought one for myself to replace the cheap plastic one.

And to show customers, here’s an example of a well designed USB 3.0 product (along with some DisplayLink products).

Thank you Mr. Snarkman for the suggestion to test the Lexar Triton.

Everyone else, suggest more products, maybe we can test it.

PC Chipsets with integrated USB 3.0 (from the Innovator/inventor of USB) started shipping at the beginning of April for reviews.

Here’s a table from Anandtech clearly showing there will be 4 USB 3.0 ports!

They’ve added 4 USB 3.0 ports and to the existing 14 USB 2.0 ports.

If you look at your laptop or desktop, you won’t see that many USB 2.0 ports on the outside because some are used internally.  They connect to a 3G modem or a card reader or ExpressCard slot.

ASUS, HP, Samsung, Toshiba, and others have already announced they will have laptops based on the Ivy Bridge chipset, just Google Ivy Bridge PC and you’ll get all the models

It turns out that AMD has been shipping a motherboard also.

I found this article comparing the performance of the Ivy Bridge and AMD integrated chipsets against NEC, VIA, and ASMedia USB 3.0 Host controllers at http://techreport.com/discussions.x/22775.

Here’s part of the Graphs from that Report.

  From http://techreport.com/discussions.x/22775

As expected, the Ivy Bridge Chipset performs faster, it’s the Blue bar.

I’m going to make you go to the actual article at techreport.com to see what the other chips and integrated chips sets are on the graph because I think the website deserve the hits.

Integrated is Faster

Ivy Bridge is faster because it’s fully integrated:

The stand alone chips used in the NEC, VIA, and ASMedia Hosts can NOT achieve faster speeds because they are limited by their PCIe Gen 1 x1 connection to the motherboard.   PCIe Gen 1 x1 can only go up to 2.5 Gbps, and it’s less in a system where many PCIe peripherals are using the PCIe bus.  Ivy Bridge shouldn’t suffer from this because it is fully integrated into Ivy Bridge and probably has at least a PCIe Gen 1 x2, x4, or even x16 to make sure there is plenty of bandwidth to move the USB 3.0 data in and out of the system. 

For detail on factors that reduce or increase USB 3.0 performance read this blog entry.

I’m going to make you go to the actual article at techreport.com to see what the other chips and integrated chips sets are on the graph because I think the website deserve the hits.

Why the performance isn’t even faster (maybe)

Performance Note: the report does NOT tell us what kind of USB 3.0 Drive they used for testing. I can actually guess which Flash Drive they are using based on the max read speeds that I see, but that will be for a later blog entry.

I think the throughput is limited by the speed of the actual USB 3.0 Hard Drive or USB 3.0 Flash drive being used.

1. If it’s a USB 3.0 Hard Drive, it probably uses a bridge chip from USB 3.0 to a SATA 3 Gigabit/second (Gb/s). This means the maximum Read speed would be near 300 MegaBytes per second (MB/s) or about 3 Gb/s. 
2. If it’s a USB 3.0 Flash Drive, it’s speed will be limited by the quality of the Flash inside the drive.  The fastest flash speeds we’ve ever seen is about 300 Mb/s with a $600 SuperTalent flash drive that arranged 2 banks of flash in a RAID configuration.   At $600, this isn’t a really a consumer product.

   Basically, it was fast because it used the fastest Flash memory, lot of it (128GB), and arranged it in two pieces for simultaneous access to both pieces.  I don’t consider this to be a commercial product, and it didn’t sell that many because it cost more than a Hard Drive, but it gives us an idea of what performance is possible with Flash Memory.

USB 3.0 in Tablets

Apparently Ivy Bridge is also targeted at Tablet PCs with Win 8.   This makes Ivy Bridge the second chipset with integrated support along with TI’s OMAP 5 demonstrated at CES 2012 in January.

This confirms Rahman Ismail’s comments (USB-IF CTO) correctly stated USB 3.0 in tablets and smart phones will be appearing in 2012.

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Reader Mail

Thanks for reading this blog.

Comment below or send me an e-mail. Maybe if it’s insightful or insulting, I’ll post it here.  Either one works.

Reader Mail Below

> From: Name Withheld
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:35 PM
> To: Eric Huang

> Subject: Love your blooper on youtube!

> I just KNEW you were human!

My response:
> Was I a nematode before?

His Response:
> Correct

(Nematode = Worm)

Let me know if you know any spam bots.  I’ll send you his e-mail address…

Here’s the longer, more detailed version of our USB 3.0 SSIC demonstration.   It’s 7 minutes.  It’s going to be the best 7 minutes of your day.

SuperSpeed Interchip Proof of Concept–Long Version

If you want to watch the shorter version (or more of a description) go back to last week’s blog here for a written description of the SuperSpeed USB 3.0 Interchip (SSIC) demo.

I meant to post it Thursday last week, but apparently I lied.

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Last week I wrote “…someone pointed out to me that no one is going to ever watch these videos twice.”

I received this comment in response, “Eric you are right, I’m never going to watch theses videos twice”

Thanks.

Thanks very, very much.

Synopsys worked with the USB-IF SSIC Working Group to develop a SSIC Proof of Concept demonstration. 

The USB-IF has been working on SSIC for some time.

This Proof of Concept in FPGA is to test the SSIC specification version 0.90 to see if it actually works in hardware.

It worked (mostly).

We learned, as expected, the SSIC Spec needs changes.

We learned what works and fixes need to be made to the specification.

We used our own HAPS FPGA platforms and standard PCs.  The HAPS51-2s are connected to the PCs with PCIe.  The FPGA boards are shown below.

On top (left side of table) we have a modified USB 3.0 Host for SSIC.

On bottom (right side of table) we have a modified USB 3.0 Device for SSIC.

There is no USB 3.0 PHY in this set up.  Read to end for more on the PHY used.

Take note:  FPGA-Based Prototyping is a good idea as part of specification development too.

As with our standard USB 3.0 Host and Device, we could close timing in the FPGAs at 125MHz even when the FPGA design is over 80% utilized.

We’ve edited 2 versions the SSIC Proof of Concept video for your viewing pleasure. 

A short version and a long version.

The short version focuses on the hardware setup and the demonstration.  It’s posted below.

SSIC Proof of Concept – Short Version

This is Shailesh and I just before we started the demo.

What is the point?

The SSIC USB-IF WG has both proven the SSIC concept works, and improved it using FPGA-based prototyping.  The USB 3.0 can be used with the SSIC modifications to use USB 3.0 on PCB for chip-to-chip communication with less power than USB 3.0 outside the box.  It preserves software so you continue to use existing USB 3.0 drivers and stacks.

What is SSIC?

See the previous entry here for a brief description.

It will be used to connect Applications Processor chips to other USB 3.0 peripherals inside the box, on PCB.  It is a chip-to-chip protocol. 

For example, it could be used to connect a Mobile Apps Processer to a WiFi baseband chip.  The Apps processor could use the same, unmodified USB drivers it uses for an external, USB plug in WiFi modem.   It uses USB 3.0 to communicate, but it can less power because it drives signals over a few centimeters of PCB, not 3 meters of USB 3.0 Cable.  SSIC uses a different M-PHY for SSIC.   It uses less power.  We don’t use an M-PHY in the SSIC Proof of Concept.

 

Caveat and Disclaimer

This is not a product and this is not a product announcement.  This is a working demonstration of the technology.

Read to the End

The long version is 7 minutes and has a lot of detail and is only for the most brave USB viewers.   It has a more detail detail on how the two boards are connected.  So I lied.  There is no detail how the two platforms are connected when the USB 3.0 PHY is not used. You have to wait until Thursday and watch that video.

See you Thursday.

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I wanted to post the short video first and post the long video later, but someone pointed out to me that no one is going to ever watch these videos twice.

So I separated them anyways because you were going to come back on Thursday anyway.

Tomorrow, I should be posting something of interest to you on SuperSpeed Interchip (SSIC).

If all goes well.

SuperSpeed Interchip (SSIC) brings USB 3.0 from outside the PC to on the PCB to use USB 3.0 between chips.  It allows you to reuse your USB 3.0 software drivers and take advantage of USB 3.0 gigabit speeds to communicate between chips on the circuit board. 

More tomorrow.  Most likely.

Yes, this is a terrible blog entry.

You try to write something 12,213 people want to read at least once a week.

Something that isn’t a Facebook update status like, “Love the Fried Dumplings in Beijing”

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I like Fried Dumplings, Steamed Dumpling are good also.

This means TI developed 6 devices or chips that support Thunderbolt.  In other words, TI chips sit next to the actual Thunderbolt chips. 

Interestingly, if you look at the prices of the TI devices in the announcement you will see the following table:

The Thunderbolt chips are made by only one company, the Innovator that created Thunderbolt and USB 3.0.

You can look at list prices for Thunderbolt at the Innovator website here.

You will see 2 prices, one at about $23 and the other at $10.50.

Combined, the prices will be about $24 for what I think is a Host PC, and about $11 for a Peripheral.

If you are building a PC, the cost adder will be about $24.  This is a lot of cost adder to a $599 PC where the PC maker probably makes less than $150 on each PC.  Of course, if you are Apple you sell your PCs for $1000-$2500 or more so you can absorb the cost better.  Apple sells a $50 Thunderbolt Cable too.

   QUIZ: How long is a Thunderbolt Cable?  Answer in the Comments below (even if someone has already answered).

If you are building a Hard Drive or SSD, or maybe a monitor, and you want to add Thunderbolt, the cost adder to your BOM will be about $11.This is a lot to add to a 1 TB hard drive that sells for less than $150, so you’ll see below that Thunderbolt drives sell for much more.

Just to point out my guess for Thunderbolt pricing:  $25 (published last September 2011).***  So I was on target on the host side, but far too high on the peripheral side.

Thunderbolt End Product Pricing – Peripherals

For the moment, it turns out if you buy a Thunderbolt Drive it doesn’t come with a cable.

You buy a cable for $50.

$50

I could feed a family of four at a good Chinese restaurant in Mountain View for the price of one Thunderbolt cable. I’ve done it.  With really good vegetables and everything

Or each lunch in the Synopsys Café for 11 days (I like the pizza).

So you bought your $50 cable, now if you want to buy a Drive.  In one case you can choose between a USB 3.0 6TB WD drive ($491 at Amazon) to a Thunderbolt WD Drive ($699 at Amazon).  Personally, I think that is a pretty big price delta.

You can read a reviews at CNET on all existing Thunderbolt drives as of today where I got all this good information.

USB 3.0 costs less

Reminder: USB 3.0 Host chips were down to $1.50-2.20 per chip in volume by late summer 2011 (My awesome graph of USB 3.0 Host Chip Pricing can be seen here)

Unsubstantiated rumor:Digitimes reported in August 2011 that Renesas could drop Host Controller Chip prices to $1.20 a unit in early 2012 (links in the same blog entry (Yes click on the entry twice just so I get the extra page hit.))  I don’t know if the price drop happened. I have no data to point to.  If you have hard data you can point me to, send it.

My point is that a USB 3.0 Host is a much smaller cost adder for a PC compared to Thunderbolt. It is safe to say, for peripherals it’s also a fraction of the Thunderbolt cost.

To be clear, Thunderbolt is a great technology for high speed transfers for people who want to pay for the performance.

USB 3.0 is for the rest of us.  Thunderbolt won’t replace USB.  They will peacefully coexist in high end applications.

(Also, USB 3.0 also supplies power,  Thunderbolt doesn’t.)

3/30/12 Correction : The Thunderbolt spec allows up to 10W of power to be supplied over the cable.  This may be necessary because the Thunderbolt cable is an “active” cable with silicon inside which increases the cost of the cable.  For the drives reviewed by CNET, apparently only the Elgato Thunderbolt SSD drive is bus powered, and does not require a second power cable.

So now when your collegues ask you about Thunderbolt, you have all the info you’ll need so say, “Hey it’s good tech, but USB 3.0 is now.”

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***It’s possible the Innovator pricing was published much earlier, I just didn’t have the info. 

stupid spam bots